Posted by John Robinson on March 11, 1998 at 22:32:53:
In Reply to: Re: To Live Forever -- Cloning and the Hero posted by Clifford Mee on March 11, 1998 at 09:45:34:
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: : : Presently the discussion in the Netherlands on cloning is ongoing as a result of the declined request by the governement for a license to clone cows for production of proteins . That reminded me of one of Vance's best books (IMO): To Live Forever published in 1956.
: : : The five? cloned people per Amaranth and the principle arguments used by the hero (Waylock) at the end of the book are very similar compared to arguments in Dutch newspapers. e.g. Is it ethical to make a clone of yourself and to use organs? (answers untill now: NO)
: : : Any idea's on this topic?
: : : btw Waylock is one of my favorites as a hero. The only mistake he made (IMHO) is that he never followed up on the injection fluid that helped him so much when he worked in the institute for mentally deranged. It is also a less positive aspect of his relation to the friend that helped him (could be the subject of another discussion line about the hero's of Vance)
: : : In the same book Vance is very early in describing recreational drugs and emotion influencing substances far before Valium started to be used.
: : : Recreational drugs is a topic nowadays as young kids are using extasy in a higher frequency then paracetamol.
: : : Other early idea's from Vance that are coming true nowadays?
: : : Willem
: : I would say that the greatest difference between the potential ability of modern science to clone humans, and Vance's concept in "To Live Forever" is that cloning on its own does not offer a prolongation of life to the individual (except in the sense that spare-parts might enable an otherwise fatal illness to be overcome). A central element in the book is that the Amaranth has the ability to transfer his or her memories, personality and indeed conciousness to a clone. Without this ability the mere existence of a clone would not offer immortality as such. A clone would be merely like having a child except that instead of having half of the genetic make up of a parent it would have the whole.
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: I think you miss the point about To Live Forever, Martin.
: I think Vance was basically saying identical cloning was impossible and the whole culture in the book was one big lie. The Jacynth Martin which Waylock killed and the one that sort Vengence were 2 different beings because they did not share identical memories.
: Also If you were cloned which body is you ? They cannot be identical as they fill different places in space and therefore instantly have different perspectives.
: To Live Forever is a suberp thought provoking book with a great yarn. I just love Vance.
Clifford - I must disagree with you about To Live Forever.I think Martin has the right idea. First let me say that I read the book in the early 60's when I was in my teens so hope I don't embarrass myself with what I remember from 30+ years ago. As I recall, the clones were kept suspended (and hidden so your enemies would'd find and kill them). Once a year you would download your memories into the clone so that if your "body" died during the year you would lose at most one years worth of memories. I don't think there was ever any doubt that even if the clone started off with the same memories that the day to day experience would be different and so a year later the clone would not be identical to the original. I think the general public today has the idea that a clone will have all the memories of the original person whereas if a clone can be made today I think it will have the genetic makeup of the original but not the original's memories. Although I do not recall the names of the authors I have read stories where people have "brain dead" or maybe monkey brain clones that they use for organ transplants. This presents an interesting problem. Say I can grow a duplicate of my present body. Assume that I can do something that prevents the "new" bodies brain from developing (a lot of my teachers would probably say that's what happened to me!!!)What are the ethics if I take a heart or 2 lungs or whatever from my "spare" body? I suspect your feelings are different depending on if you are 20 years old or if you are 80 years old!!
John